Y'all don't know how HARD it was to break up that thread from the original topic,...but it had to be done, I think! But let's continue. I will rely on all of you to remember EVERYTHING that's been said before.......

MatthewDay,...
Thanks, man!!

"There is no spoon!"
Neo learned how to "bend" the rules in The Matrix... Jesus also was a rule "bender!" There are so many examples that come to mind... one that sticks out the most is when Jesus walked on water!!! There are so many others...

Matt: [and I’m not disagreeing, just amplifying] In “The Last Temptation of Christ,” there’s a scene where Jesus is asked if God changed his mind [re: the message to turn the other cheek rather than seeking an eye for an eye] and Jesus replies, “No. He just felt like your hearts were ready for more.”

Maybe Neo was actually unbending the rules to conquer illusion... to establish that new order.

[hmm... this sounded a lot better before I put it into words]

The Matrix as Messiah Movie:
http://wbboards.warnerbros.com/ultimate/files/Forum68/HTML/000052.html
[a direct link... I second MD's comments to you]

Hey, gang,....

This is from an e-mail I just got. Thought I would share with everybody:

We have to learn to fight with spiritual armor -
like it says in Ephesians 6: Put on the full armor of God because we are
not battling men, we are battling the evil forces of this world, and we
need the full armor so that we can stand.
The shield of faith, the sword - - the word of God, belt of truth,
******plate of righteousness. . .
Like all the different programs he had to get into his head, and because he
was humble enough that he never thought he was the ONE, he was the ONE.
I pictured, on those bullets that stood in mid air - all the demons I have
- insecurity, greed, selfishness, fear, and imagined that they have killed
me and held me back my whole life cause I ddin't see that they were'nt real
--- so, I tried to see them as bullets in mid-air one morning during my
quiet time with God, and prayed that I could stop each one, that he would
give me the strength to see it and make it fall to the ground. . . .
I cannot tell you how that moved my walk with God -- That I was very
insulted by my boss that day, and had to try to keep from smiling cause
every word he said came right to the edge of my heart and I saw it stop,
and fall to the ground -- I now have a weapon to fight with God. . .

I know it is a little out there, but wow! It really has changed my
insides. . .

Incredible, huh?!
Cecil

cecilc - not out there at all with Eph 6. I put on my full armor everyday... been doing it for a couple of months. I also intercede for people who are not able to put it on themselves and put it on for them.

-Sandals of Peace
-Helmet of Salvation
-Belt of Truth
-Sword of the Spirit (prayer)
-******plate of Righteousness
-Shield of Faith

Interesting parallel comparing armor/computer programs!!! I have seen it twice. I may see it again... I feel there is so much more there...

I live at thematrix.acmecity.com/mission117

People who live outside the law must live within the law. How's that for bending and unbending rules?

Example: a professional thief is a criminal and therefore lives outside of the laws of this country. To keep from drawing attention to himself, he lives completely within the law by obeying them to the letter. He doesn't break speed limits, he pays all his bills on time, etc.

In our own ways, we all bend laws (physically and spiritually) and many times claim they are unbent.

-Sword of the Spirit (prayer)-

Without trying to turn this into a sermon, the emphasis, IMHO, in Ephesians 6 is that it's God's armor and we must consciously decide to wear all of it. Otherwise we WILL fail against principalities and powers, etc.

Translating the second part of the above to The Matrix; Neo knew he could bend/break some of the rules, but until he understood ALL that he could do, the Agents always had the upper hand.

Hello everyone! I have been reading the posts here and at "image & met" since April 5th. I'm just barely making my first post so if I tend to repeat old news, please forgive me. (By the way, I am a bible college student at Christ for the Nations Institute, Dallas!) have seen this movie four times already, my first time being April 3rd. . . my birthday!

I think that Neo's first encounters with typing on his computer screen and phone calls which lead him to Morpheus are very comparable with the way that God draws us to Himself via the Holy Spirit (still small voice). Notice that the first time Neo disobeys "the Spirit" He is taken captive by the enemy.

On the Oracle---
1) The vase is a type of the law. Think about what she said.

". . .and don't worry about the vase.
"What vase?"

**CRASH**

"That vase."
"I'm sorry."
"I said don't worry about it. I'll get one of my kids to fix it. What's really going to bake your noodle later is--- Would you still have broken it if I hadn't said anything."

This demonstrates that when God gave us the law, He knew fully well that it was going to break it. It is not possible to break a law without first being made aware of it. It also demonstrates that even though we break the law, God has already got provision prepared to fix what we, as human beings, inevitably mess up.

2) Neo as a type of passover lamb/type of Christ.

The Oracle inspected Neo's body in the same fasion that a Priest at the Temple would inspect the passover lamb. (I am still contemplating this theory)

3) Oatmeal cookies

This is out on a limb, but could the cookie have been a type of firstfruits offering to Neo?

and---
4) Did anyone else notice that all of the rest of the potentials were children?
"Unless you become as little children. . ."

I havn't seen anything about the dove in the, "woman in the red dress scene". When Morpheus asks Tank to freeze the program there is a dove positioned in a perfect posture to "light upon" Neo's head. This seemed to be one of the coolest and most obvious types in the whole movie.

Speaking of the woman in the red dress, It was because Mouse was distracted by a photograph of his own "graven image" that he didn't even notice that the agents had set up a wall to prevent escape. See what happens when we are disobedient? We endanger ourselves as well as the people around us.

The "Matrix" is obviously a type of the world while the "Real world" is a type of the spririt realm.

Sometimes Tank was a type of the Holy Spirit, equipping the "saints" with whatever gift was neccessary in any given situation.

It wasn't until after Neo had taken "strong drink" from Cypher that Cypher began to cause Neo to question and doubt what Morpheus had said. Satan is still using them same tactics today tha he used in the garden. "Did God really say. . ."

The engraving on the ship that titled it the "Nebuchadnezzar" also said, "Mark 3:13"

At one point Neo says, "Jesus", and Trinity responds, "What?".
At another he says, "God", and she responds with another, "What?".

And now, for my inquiries

1) Tank said "The captain of EACH SHIP is given codes to Zion's mainframe." What other ships?

2) What is the metaphorical value of the killing in this movie? I believe that this issue demands a good solid answer.

3) What is with all the shell casings. I'm sure that they are a piece of the answer to the mass homicide puzzle.

4) If this movie is truly intended to glorify The King, (Which I firmly believe it does!), then why all the blasphemies?

Some comments on the full circle theme;

1) The movie begins and ends in room 303 of the Heart O' the City Hotel.

2) Morpheus is captured in the same building where he and Neo met.

3) Is the office building Where Morpheus is held captive the same one that Neo was employed at?

Sorry for the extremely long post, I just had a lot to say.

-------------------
". . .The Matrix cannot tell you who you are."

This movie is BEEFY!

Hey, OnFyre4God (great name, by the way!)...

First, Happy Birthday!
Secondly,...for a 1st post, you make a pretty impressive entrance! :-)

Nice pick up on the vase thing - I don't remember hearing that one before. It's a nice fit.

And the dove scene?...I think that one flew by everyone - I don't even remember it! Good job!

You know, Mike Skocko (12321) brought up the violence metaphor a looooooong time ago, but to my knowledge nobody ever had an answer or even a theory about it. But it would be very hard to imagine that it DIDN'T mean anything!

Anyway, man, that's a great post - lots of good ideas!

OnFyre4God: Wow! You've drawn some nice parallels, many of which I haven't seen metioned yet. Glad to have you in on this discussion! I agree with you and cecilc that the violence metaphor needs be addressed more fully.

Extending your idea about Neo typing at the keyboard: Somewhere it is mentioned in the film that Neo has been searching for Morpheus for the last couple of years, while Morpheus has been searching for Neo his whole life. If we view Neo as the person rather than the One, and Morpheus as God the Father, we have a nice metaphor for the relationship between God and man. God desires to have a relationship with us, from before we were born even. He is reaching out to us our whole lives.

When we seek God, he will reveal himself to us. "Seek and you will find, knock and the door will be opened..." Notice how Morpheus first contacted Neo (through Trinity, the Spirit) rather than the other way around. This was done via the computer screen when Neo is first introduced. "Wake up, Neo! The Matrix has you!" Translated, "wake up, sin has you!" God reaches out to us first.

It is interesting that this scene is followed by "Knock, knock...", then the door to Neo's apartment is opened. This moment is critical because the invitation is extended to Neo to join the group, and thus "follow the white rabbit." It is this decision that paves the way for Neo to eventually establish a relationship with Morpheus. When Christ knocks on the door to our hearts, he follows with an invitation to "follow him"! If we do, we will enter into a relationship with the Father.

Just a start...I am sure this train of thought can be developed further!

Hey guys!

woohoo! part2! Well anyway as far as the violence goes I don't necessarily think it's a metaphorical thing. Sure it's a fight against the principalities, the rulers...but I think for the most part it's there because the wachowski bros not only wanted to makle a smart inteligent peice of art but also a movie that would draw those action-oriented what does drama and metaphor mean type of people.

As far as the dove goes, I'm going to check that out right now, sounds intruiging and I'll get right back to ya on it.

ok need new quote

ok i'm back

I just checked out the dove scene, well there are a couple of shots where the dove does sit right over neo's shoulder, it might be stretching it but they're probably not in there for no reason (there are two of them, plus it might just be to emphasize the freeze frame effect)...I must say you can't get enough of this movie, kind of expensive to see it three times but hey matinees are cheap. I've read about a guy who's seen it 11 times already!

Been thinking about the agent "possession" issue. The agents "took over" their host, usually an innocent bystander, resulting in the host's subsequent death on most occasions. Anyone care to touch on this?

Miracles and Wonders! There’s no stopping this conversation now. [and there’s no way to acknowledge and respond to every wonderful observation. But I read everything -- repeatedly. You’re all amazing!

----- ----- -----

A long time ago in a thread far far away...

[in response to a friend’s lamenting the need for romance of any type in the film... and thus a perceived opening to begin to address the violence]

The kiss?
Had to happen.

The good/evil, man/woman dynamic had to be played out. The primary conflict in this genre is easily recognized and resolved: Two sharply defined, diametrically opposed groups battle until a single victor emerges. The traditional reward for such a champion is, of course, the woman. Duality demands specific roles for its archetypal players or the audience might recognize the inherent flaws in such perceptual prisons...

My goodness. Did I say that out loud? Pedantic speech and repetition of form often numbs the listener’s higher faculties. Perhaps you’ll still be able to accept the premise that good and evil always engage in physical conflict. Mortal combat is the means by which these dilemmas must be resolved and your champions crowned. The destruction of evil then leaves a void that must be filled. The kiss represents renewal of the species. The glorious act of procreation. Then blissful post-coital peace. That is your reward. And notice, you’ve already forgotten what I said in the first paragraph.

----- ----- -----

Sorry ‘bout casting you in such a role, heavensent1, but this nonsense needs to be brought into the light. The violence in The Matrix is nothing but a metaphor. A powerful, action-packed, testosterone-drenched metaphor. Can you possibly imagine a better counter-metaphor than that single, tender, ressurective encounter?

Ressurective? If it’s not a word, it should be. Neo was dead. Battles fought and lost with guns, guns, and more guns [with a fist-fight or two thrown in to demonstrate another primitive means to an end] until this moment. Violence lead to Neo’s death. Guns were used to kill humans, never agents. The act bought precious moments and nothing more. The kiss, and all it represents was the redemptive act. If Eve gets stuck with the blame, then Trinity deserves the credit.

Love worked the miracle. Love wrought the victory.

Dang. I was gonna do this back at my site. Oh well, it needed saying. [Plus there’s a lot that got left out] Gotta run.

This’s incomplete, but I hope it still makes some kind of sense.

----- ----- -----

Incomplete is right! But hey, it’s a start.

Tracer, I've also been thinking a lot about the symbolism of "spiritual warfare" in the movie. The more I think about it the more I lean towards the idea that in the movie the Matrix represents reality and the real world represents the spiritual realm. Several reasons for this conclusion...

- The masses are "asleep" in the real world. It was only by Neo's search and his choice that he was awakened and "unplugged" from the Matrix and the truth was revealed to Him.

- While the agents are trying to "break" Morpheous one of them says,"Why isn't it working?" I see this as a tribute to the power of prayer in the spiritual realm - Tank takes a wet towel and soothes Morpheous and talks to him. I am convinced this is the only reason Morpheous doesn't "break."

I feel the violence is just symbolic of the battles that we face each day.

Ephesians 6:16

In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one.

In the movie, the flaming arrows are represented by bullets!

Brothers and Sisters in Christ-
What are the flaming arrows Satan is throwing at you??? In Christ Jesus we have the power to overcome every flaming arrow that is thrown our way!!!

So am I to believe here that
ya'll think Neo was a metaphor for jesus
and that he and only he could be the one?

What about the ending when he says he is going to show you a world with you...
???

I hypothisize
that the next step in the story is that you have Neo teach other Matrixites & ex-pats
how to achieve Neo-hood...

imagine an army of Neos
the matrix doesn't stand a chance...

you'll end up with an infinity
of infinitely unbounded beings....

MAx

Max, Neo doesn't say "...a world with you..." Actually, Max, Neo's speech at the end of the movie goes like this:

"I know you're out there. I can feel you now. I know that you're afraid. You're afraid of us. You're afraid of change. I don't know the future. I didn't come here to tell you how this is going to end. I came here to tell you how it's going to begin. I'm going to hang up this phone and then I'm going to show these people what you don't want them to see. I'm going to show them a world without you. A world without rules and controls, without borders and boundaries. A world where anything is possible. Where we go from here is a choice I leave to you."

And for the first section of your post, the answer is "Yes!" (NOT maybe!)

MatthewDay: Very perceptive! I think you are on to something here. In fact, I believe there are elements of truth to both frames of reference. There are certainly additional gems to be discovered if we focus on the film from the point of view you suggest.

Layers upon layers upon layers...

Max Q: The point of confusion seems to emanate from one misplaced reference frame... Neo’s speech, as quoted by acrobat, is NOT directed at the people in the movie -- it’s spoken to the AIs. [who trace and monitor all calls]

Notice how Neo says, “I'm going to hang up this phone and then I'm going to show these people what you don't want them to see.

Isn’t that the clincher?

This discussion was generated by the movie’s relationship to the Book -- not the other way around. In the movie, the characters search for The One who can set them free, right? That they help him gives meaning and purpose to the human drama, the human adventure. We’re part of a team. It’s exciting.

Does this make sense?

As much as there is in the way of thoughts about this or that
perspective of the movie and it's parts, here is a thought perhaps
needing to be considered.

First, did all these things others see, where they thought of and intentionally
incorporated? Or was there just a base line of honesty from which so many
perspectives can evolve from?

And if the second is true, then where is the dividing line between what is red
and what is blue?

Start with a base line and evolve out many things, some red and some blue.

How much have we done this in our history already? What is red and what is blue?

Perhaps it's knowing the base line and that you have a choice of what you evolve
out from it.

With such a mix of red and blue, over time of many evolutions out, what we get is
purple. Never really sure about what is red or what is blue.

Funny but all the Exit signs in the movie are green!

Interesting poetry 3Seas, although the peotry I like best follows a more...umm...simple pattern (I make an exception for yeats)

MichaelH,...

Oh,.....My,.....God! Thank you!!!

Regarding MichaelH's very dramatic post!

I'm heartened to see that I'm not the only one with a two value system.
Right - Wrong
Black - White
Eternity - Death
Yes - No

Did you notice - there are no "maybe"'s in that post. No "gray" areas!

Carry on, soldier!

Pardon the interruption, but just in case you're interested, a semi-accurate copy of the script can be found at:

http://members.xoom.com/tridave/matrix.htm

Look in the info section.

Say cecilc

did you read my last response didn't find an answer. Just curious what you thought?

Somewhere there is a line. In your head. Some who fight on one sid ethink they are on the other. But so is the way of the way.

> > >
1) Tank said "The captain of EACH SHIP is given codes to Zion's mainframe." What other ships?
< < <

Us. We are the other ships! :-)

> > >
2) What is the metaphorical value of the killing in this movie? I believe that this issue demands a good solid answer.
< < <

You have to speak to the masses in a language they understand. I think this is classified as a necessary evil. Think of the parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector praying at the altar... one says, "I have tithed twice this week and thank God I'm not like the heathen;" and the other says, "Forgive me Lord, for I am a sinner." I think you know how this one ends.

> > >
3) What is with all the shell casings. I'm sure that they are a piece of the answer to the mass homicide puzzle.
< < <

You're reading too much into it now. I think they probably just wanted to make some cool CG. I mean, this is quite a stretch to find
metaphorical value there.

> > >
4) If this movie is truly intended to glorify The King, (Which I firmly believe it does!), then why all the blasphemies?
< < <

See the answer to (2).

------------------
= = =
Jonathan S. Gilbert
http://www.formatory.com/
= = =

MichaelH...AWESOME insight!!! Thank you!!!

MichaelH: You already know what I think. [smile]

----- ----- -----

Matt: On unbending the rules.

The one thing Neo, Jesus, and the rest of us have in common is the world we live in. You know, something’s really out of whack. When the agent spoke to Neo about leading two separate lives...

Maybe I should start at the beginning.

Genesis 1: Well, you know.
Genesis 2: If at first you don’t succeed...
[I expect heat from this one. Feel free to fire away.]

Point is, there seems to be two stories running through the Bible. Like Neo’s two lives, Jesus had his own torn curtain to deal with. [oh-oh, I’m getting ahead of myself] The Torah [the first five books of the Bible] is jammed with rules. You already know he bent, broke, or, to some of the faithful, profaned many of these rules. Question is, why?

To the Jewish folk who studied the Word, nothing was more sacred than the Torah. This isn’t just inspired, this is the Word as dictated to Moses BY GOD HIMSELF. This is straight from the Source. [man, the tangents to follow at this point...]

Whether or not you accept the two world idea, you’ll probably have no trouble with agreeing that getting tossed out of Eden was bad news for A & E [and their kids] so God works to try and help ‘em fix the mess. Fast forward to Jesus. Kazantzakis’ Jesus says that God felt their hearts were ready for more. You buy that?

What was Jesus up to if he wasn’t trying to restore order? The Torah contains tough rules for a tough time, but they’re God’s rules. If you can handle Kazantzakis’ explanation, it should follow that the original rules had been bent by God to fit the twisted state of humanity 3,300 years ago. He’s got a plan, right? He needed someone to help with the unbending. The Kid says, “I’ll do it, Dad!”

[Augh! This feels so scattered] Jesus advised following some rules [like paying taxes and loving everyone] and ignoring others [like eating only certain things or taking an eye for an eye or walking on water] for a reason. It may sound like semantics, but if the world’s really out of whack, so are our frames of reference.

Bending, unbending, what’s the difference?
A world of difference, my friends, a world of difference.

----- ----- -----

If this makes no sense, please say so. It’s part of a much larger picture. Kinda important to get this straight. Sweet dreams, all.

3seas wrote:
> > >
Overall - I think people are reading a good bit more into the religious aspect then is there.
< < <

"Then is there" is improper English. Also, we are not discussing the "religious aspect" of the movie; we are discussing our own spiritual experiences of it, overall.

> > >
I suppose this is natural because it's what people have been trained/programed to look for.
< < <

I disagree very strongly with this statement. First of all, "natural" has nothing to do with my spiritual experience of The Matrix. I never went to church as a kid and my father is a scientist. I take everything in my outer and inner life in as objective and real a way as possible. Therefore I think that you sir, have a rather poor grasp on reality if you have decided to contend that The Matrix is not permeated with esoteric meaning.

> > >
That's the purple!
< < <

More like brown.

> > >
I.E. read the April 96 script and you'll see the oracle was somthing not to trust, an illusion
to get past. Like the woman in the red dress (which is not in that script).
< < <

Then actual intentions of the filmmaker, and anything else, are completely unrelated to this discussion! Don't you get it? Those things are all things that are out in the outside world, the "unreal world" -- The Matrix if you will. We are almost *soley* concerned with our own internal experiences of this film, and how in an uncanny way it describes, parable style, the coming of a messiah. Whether you are *willing* to open your MIND to this possibility, is up to YOU. Get it?

------------------
= = =
Jonathan S. Gilbert
http://www.formatory.com/
= = =

Shadrach, I looked at you profile and web page.

How come it don't fit, or that it does.

So free your mind. I gotta whole lotta improper english.



Besides: doya really think there are enough angels to serve everyone who goes to heaven?
And who's gonna serve the angels? The Matrix?

Free you mind, ignorane is bliss.

3seas:
> > >
Besides: doya really think there are enough angels to serve everyone who goes to heaven?
And who's gonna serve the angels? The Matrix?

Free you mind, ignorane is bliss.
< < <

"Repent! The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand!"

Don't you GET IT?? I guess you're just playing dumb to push my buttons, so to speak -- I'll give you the benefit of the doubt on that one. I guess, it's just that I find it hard to believe that after the teachings of Christ have been around for 2000 years, and now there are films like the Matrix to help us understand our situation on this planet, that there are still people who think "heaven" is somewhere you go after you die.

3seas wrote:
> > >
Overall - I think people are reading a good bit more into the religious aspect then is there.
< < <

"Then is there" is improper English. Also, we are not discussing the "religious aspect" of the movie; we are discussing our own spiritual experiences of it, overall.

> > >
I suppose this is natural because it's what people have been trained/programed to look for.
< < <

I disagree very strongly with this statement. First of all, "natural" has nothing to do with my spiritual experience of The Matrix. I never went to church as a kid and my father is a scientist. I take everything in my outer and inner life in as objective and real a way as possible. Therefore I think that you sir, have a rather poor grasp on reality if you have decided to contend that The Matrix is not permeated with esoteric meaning.

> > >
That's the purple!
< < <

More like brown.

> > >
I.E. read the April 96 script and you'll see the oracle was somthing not to trust, an illusion
to get past. Like the woman in the red dress (which is not in that script).
< < <

Then actual intentions of the filmmaker, and anything else, are completely unrelated to this discussion! Don't you get it? Those things are all things that are out in the outside world, the "unreal world" -- The Matrix if you will. We are almost *soley* concerned with our own internal experiences of this film, and how in an uncanny way it describes, parable style, the coming of a messiah. Whether you are *willing* to open your MIND to this possibility, is up to YOU. Get it?

------------------
= = =
Jonathan S. Gilbert
http://www.formatory.com/
= = =

"I know exactly what you mean.
Let me tell you why you're here. You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain. But you feel it. You've felt it your entire life. That there's something wrong with the world. You don't know what it is but it's there,
like a splinter in your mind driving you mad.

It is this feeling that has brought you to me. Do you know what I'm talking about?"

Yes Morpheus I do
and I would say that it came down to the feeling I had by those who say this world was created by one being and that only this one being is responsible for its creation....

Acrobat
12321
What you took as my ignorance was my lack of proof reading....
Neo is going to show them the AI
a world without them and that means teaching the MATRIXITES how to assume the viewpoint of a maker and un-maker of games; The Matrix as a metaphor for the physical realm, IS a co-created universe. Only by taking responsiblity for it could Neo overcome the trap of the game he was in. The physical realm is the same trap. We created it. You and me, right now and for the last few eternities...

Only by each of us becoming the one
can we ever think to return to native state and reclaim the universe of self
in its infinite glorious state...

2 values logic
states that there are absolutes which are not demonstratable IN THIS UNiverse...yes there maybe be absolutes in a place outside of place
BUT here it is a gradient scale of rightnesses and wrongnesses...

What I did yesterday to help myself survive may help me again today BUT tomorrow
it might be less survival for me to do so...
In a 2 valued logic system
the same survival thing
IS
always survival
this is not true...

Yes I agree that there is right and wrong and good and evil
but to say there is only 2 answers in any given case is not a demonstatable datum in this universe....

Don't forget kids!
Don't Floss
AND
consume trace programs
at the same time....
It can cause endless embarrasment
and is really hard on those bathroom mirrors!

Max
I KNOW KUNG-FU! Inc.
Endless supplier of red pills
to the off-planet government
and the Natural Guard...

You're hypnotized by a machine right now.

Could you NOT think about "The Matrix" for the next week, especially if you 'consciously' decided to not?

------------------
= = =
Jonathan S. Gilbert
http://www.formatory.com/
= = =

MaxQ wrote:
> > >
The Matrix as a metaphor for the physical realm, IS a co-created universe. Only by taking responsiblity for it could Neo overcome the trap of the game he was in. The physical realm is the same trap. We created it. You and me, right now and for the last few eternities...
< < <

Yes you are correct. One must of course be a doer of the path, and not merely a knower of it -- as Morpheus said right before I had to run to the bathroom because I was struck by a state of self-remembering and non-identification so intense that ... well heck, I can't hardly remember how it felt nor explain it, primarily because at that moment I was in a higher state of consciousness than I am now and so it is literally impossible for me to remember! :-)

Everything else you said is RIGHT ON. Have you ever read anything written about or by G.I. Gurdjieff or P.D. Ouspensky? All of you should definitely investigate these individuals. I will soon provide some U.R.L.'s to check out re: those men. Also, there is a band by the name of Course of Empire which to me, is so far ahead of its time that its ridiculous. I urge to to check out their C.D. "Telepathic Last Words." Listen to this C.D. just after going to see The Matrix, and you will begin to ask yourself very deeply WHY this music is unpopular and WHY you have never heard of it before. :-) B.T.W., the track "The Information" from this C.D. was featured on the soundtrack to the film Dark City, which before The Matrix and The Thin Red Line was the most "awakened" film I had seen.

------------------
= = =
Jonathan S. Gilbert
http://www.formatory.com/
= = =

Hey, Sampson,....
Finally found your last post in the first thread......

“God created Satan, Satan is evil yada yada...You say god nor man is responsible for evil just Satan Clause.” Sampson,....I never said that Satan is evil! (please reread the post if you have to! If you’re going to challenge something I said, make sure I said it first!) So let’s not equate God creating Satan with God creating evil. No, no, no. As far as I kno1w (and I wasn’t a witness!) Satan was a beautiful creation of God - I think the problem was that Satan started to believe his own press about how beautiful and smart he was and thought he could put himself on the same level as God. It was HIS choice to rebel and sin against God (there’s that freedom of choice thing again!) I see a lot of that same kind of thinking even today, Sampson,...in the “New Age” type religions that teach us that we’re such an intelligent species that we can “be as God”. My personal opinion is that they are headed for the same downfall as Satan.

Responsibility for your actions isn’t suspended or abolished just because you believe in God. We are all responsible to God for everything we do - and God WILL hold us up to that responsibility. So please don’t equate belief in God with irresponsibility - it won’t fit! If anything, God teaches us to try to be MORE responsible for our actions.

Sampson, I liked what you said about being reborn and ego having to die. My opinion? It’s this world that is the illusion - this world is finite in nature. I’m personally looking to the INFINITE......and I’ve decided I want to be a part of that infinity,....that eternity. You know,...even before I became a Christian, I always wondered why God would create us just for 80 or 90 years of existence. The answer (or my answer): He doesn’t. He creates us as eternal beings, but He lets us choose whether or not we WANT to be eternal.

Look, man, I’m not bashing you or your belief system (I don’t even know what they ARE!). Your experiences lead you to your beliefs, just as my experiences have lead me to mine. That’s the way it’s always going to be. You know, just from reading the rest of your post, Sampson, it seems to me that you believe in some aspects of God and the Bible but then there are some concepts or ideas that you have trouble accepting. Am I reading you right on that? And if I do read you correctly on that, and your mind is not closed off, then our dialog has really just started, hasn’t it??!

Shadrach,

DEJA 'VU

oye

god omnipotent omni etc...
he made satan with the potential to become what he did. Unlike me who could screw up and hurt someone by mistake God can't.

Yes god and believing in god can make you more responsible. and it usually does great things for people. Some people need. But at somepoint as yee agree we do a final ribirth and this part u will disagree with likely is that at that point we will release our belief in any god. It has helped us get to a point... then there is beyond that point. through the last door into infinity.

Then maybe you will realize that the I AM that i was talking about before is actually you. and you are. We are all on a journey to this place and will all find it before infinity is up. This is where i disagree with the bible again. This stuff about an infinite heaven and hell.
If i loved you and that love was pure then I would never judge u. I would be forced to let you run around creating your own problems hurting yourself. Hell... is that
I would try to show you the door out of this but you hjave to choose as we both agree.

My God will never judge me. I hope yours doesn't judge you

As for 80 or 90 years. I'm glad you see past that. You gotta deal with the crap you do for longer than that.

Myself i believe in reincarnation. The bible is dificult to read and see that it agrees with this also but i believe it does.

Yes i do think our discusion is just getting on a role. The most important thing is that we are both willing to talk and listen.

oye

god omnipotent omni etc...
he made satan with the potential to become what he did. Unlike me who could screw up and hurt someone by mistake God can't.

Yes god and believing in god can make you more responsible. and it usually does great things for people. Some people need. But at somepoint as yee agree we do a final ribirth and this part u will disagree with likely is that at that point we will release our belief in any god. It has helped us get to a point... then there is beyond that point. through the last door into infinity.

Then maybe you will realize that the I AM that i was talking about before is actually you. and you are. We are all on a journey to this place and will all find it before infinity is up. This is where i disagree with the bible again. This stuff about an infinite heaven and hell.
If i loved you and that love was pure then I would never judge u. I would be forced to let you run around creating your own problems hurting yourself. Hell... is that
I would try to show you the door out of this but you hjave to choose as we both agree.

My God will never judge me. I hope yours doesn't judge you

As for 80 or 90 years. I'm glad you see past that. You gotta deal with the crap you do for longer than that.

Myself i believe in reincarnation. The bible is dificult to read and see that it agrees with this also but i believe it does.

Yes i do think our discusion is just getting on a role. The most important thing is that we are both willing to talk and listen.

Well, good morning everyone!

Max Q: In response to your post [on 04-18-99 04:36 AM] in Imagery and Metaphor I asked, [04-18-99 07:56 AM] after some preamble, “What’s your take on the Neo as Messiah hypothesis? Could it be real enough [in your estimation] to explore, even if only as a thought experiment?” Is this your answer? [no anger, no accusing finger pointed your way, just one artist to another -- I’m really curious]

shadrach [re: 04-20-99 11:37 PM post]: “Also, we are not discussing the ‘religious aspect’ of the movie; we are discussing our own spiritual experiences of it, overall.” Thank you. “[The] actual intentions of the filmmaker...are completely unrelated to this discussion! ...We are almost [solely] concerned with our own internal experiences of this film, and how in an uncanny way it describes, parable style, the coming of a messiah...” That gets pretty close to my feelings too.

Matt: Kinda. There’s just too many references in the Book to the perceptual distortions in this place. It’s almost as if the world outside of Eden was like one of those bendy fun house mirrors. God didn’t bend us. We didn’t bend us. It was that doorway... the transition from Eden to this world...

I saw Pleasantville on an airline. In it, Jeff Daniel’s character is shown an art book. The first picture he’s shown is Massaccio’s “Expulsion from the Garden of Eden.” I’d written a long inspired paper on this painting for an Art History course. One factor hadn’t struck me until a moment ago -- although not shown, I think God was mourning the loss even more deeply that Adam and Eve. He knew what they didn’t.

An unwise choice led to the separation, but it was the separation itself that bent perception, us, and the rules. Does this make sense?

----- ----- -----

Everyone: Click the SUBMIT REPLY button once. Open a second window and check. The reply will be there.

12321,

The click Submit Reply button only once is a good thing to remind people of.

However, let's not get this confused with intentional posting of a repeat. Such as after
a response and another response, then the repeat.

Deja 'Vu requires a gap between the original and the repeat? For the effect to be felt,
otherwise it's just a plain loop, nothing changed. What is changed is the addition of more
information before the repeat.

Also the disconnected from the creators (film producers) flow in exploring this thread,
will it become a double standard?

Meaning will it be claimed that I'm disconnected from the film on things I've been
communicating and that's not OK, but here the disconnection is OK because it's someone
else?

Lets' see! This disconnection here is a personal thing, in that it's to explore how this
movie reflects in each one of us.

If this is correct, then is not what you see live happening here in responses the true
deep image of each one of us? And doesn't effort to ignore it communicate "Temp Image"
intent?

Actually I didn't see what was written in the TV front bottom left the first time but know
the last time it was "Deep Image" and different than the First shot of the front. (This in the
White "Construct")

Hmmm, so it's thought in this thread that what I communicate is not following the personal
flow?

Do you think that is air you breath? If you are always waiting for something to arive, how will
you know when it has?

3seas: About this sentiment... “Hmmm, so it's thought in this thread that what I communicate is not following the personal flow?”

Is that in reference to the reply I posted [04-16-99 10:57 AM] to you in the original thread?

That reply reads [in part]: “There’s a semi-continuous stream of thought flowing in this thread. It’s not necessary for you to join that flow, but so I can understand, does what you’re saying fit with some of this flow and if so which parts? [truly -- no offense or criticism inferred -- I’m really lost here]”

I was asking for a frame of reference, not casting judgment. Does that make sense?

3seas: About this sentiment... “Hmmm, so it's thought in this thread that what I communicate is not following the personal flow?”

Is that in reference to the reply I posted [04-16-99 10:57 AM] to you in the original thread?

That reply reads [in part]: “There’s a semi-continuous stream of thought flowing in this thread. It’s not necessary for you to join that flow, but so I can understand, does what you’re saying fit with some of this flow and if so which parts? [truly -- no offense or criticism inferred -- I’m really lost here]”

I was asking for a frame of reference, not casting judgment. Does that make sense?

Now that’s embarrassing.

An interesting discussion is emerging in the thread "Technology addiction..."; would love to have your insights.

Pardon the advertising, but I am really impressed with and have respect for the intelligent comments made by everyone in this thread.

Hello again!

There have been A LOT of posts since I was last here less than 48 hours ago! My time is rather limited, so I will be as brief as possible. I don't have time right now to read everyone's entry's, but I have skimmed over them.

MichaelH:
You are absolutely incredible. I appreciate your insights. They are very well developed and clear. One comment on gate keepers. We, as Christians, are also gate keepers. God chooses to reveal Himself as well as work through mankind via intercession. We are the connection between the spirit and physical realms.

12321:
You seem to know more about this movie than you let on. Are you sure your not one of the Wachowski's? (kidding)

cecilc:
Thank you for keeping this thread in line and making sure that users stay on the subject.

On Mouse:
Mouse's ears appeared to be stained purple in the real world but when he was in the Matrix they appeared normal.

red pill - acceptance of the truth
blue pill - rejection of the truth
red + blue = purple = double-mindedness

I think that Mouse was a type of a carnal Christian. Notice three things:

a) Dozer said that the food in the real world contained everything the body needs. I think this food may have been a type of the Word of God ---our daily bread. Mouse said, "It doesn't have everything the body needs", indicating that God's word was insufficient for him.

b) Mouse is the one who created the woman in the red dress. . . perhaps in an attempt to fill that part of himself that he felt God had left void. Notice that the very thing Mouse chose as a replacement for God in his life ended up being his downfall. Carnality will eventually destroy us if we allow it's ruthless grip to touch us.

c) This quote alone testifies of Mouse's carnal nature:
"To deny our own impulses is to deny that part of ourselves that makes us truly human." (I'm pretty sure that's accurate. Please correct me if I'm wrong.)

On the agents:
I read somewhere that each name in this movie was chosen very carefully and deliberiately. The names of the three agents are;
Agent Smith
Agent Brown
Agent Jones
Does anyone have any idea what this has to do with anything?

On Apoc and Switch:
It has already been determined that Apoc= Apocalypse= Revelation. But how is this significant to his role in the movie?

I think that Switch's name alluded to the switch that was made at the cross, when God removed His hand of blessing from Christ and put it on us while he removed the curse from us with His other hand and put it on Christ. Thus assuring our salvation. Maybe this has something to do with the reason she wears white, while everyone else wears black, but I think that it goes even deeper. . .

By the way, It's "Choi" not "Troy." Read the credits.

Someone in Imagery and Metaphor commented on th $2000 paid for the mini-disk as being a parallel for the 2000 year church age. My noodle is too tired to think about this a whole lot. Maybe one of you could contemplate and expound.?

Gotta Run!

12321:

Just saw your comment about the possibility of 2 creations. Not to insult your intelligence or start a quarrel, but it would be a paradox of devastatingly cataclysmic proportions if it were possible for an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, transcendant, immanent God to allow His enemy to destroy His perfect creation without sovereignly mandating it from the foundations of eternity, which would accomplish. . . what? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. God does nothing without purpose my friend.

I apologize if I've offended you in any way.

God Bless!

12321:

Just saw your comment about the possibility of 2 creations. Not to insult your intelligence or start a quarrel, but it would be a paradox of devastatingly cataclysmic proportions if it were possible for an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, transcendant, immanent God to allow His enemy to destroy His perfect creation without sovereignly mandating it from the foundations of eternity, which would accomplish. . . what? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. God does nothing without purpose my friend.

I apologize if I've offended you in any way.

God Bless!

12321:

Just saw your comment about the possibility of 2 creations. Not to insult your intelligence or start a quarrel, but it would be a paradox of devastatingly cataclysmic proportions if it were possible for an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, transcendant, immanent God to allow His enemy to destroy His perfect creation without sovereignly mandating it from the foundations of eternity, which would accomplish. . . what? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. God does nothing without purpose my friend.

I apologize if I've offended you in any way.

God Bless!

Sorry!

OnFyre: As to what God’s purpose was... can’t say. I can say that if you take a paper and pencil and sketch out Genesis 1 and 2 you won’t get anything that even resembles the same story.

I used to blow this off ‘cause I figured the Old Testament was just a bunch of unlikely stories that couldn’t make sense. Then I had a red pill of sorts handed to me eleven years ago and I started looking a little closer at the details. My real break came when I got fairly deep into the Bible Code story and began to learn about the folk who preserved those stories.

I’ll get deeper into this if you really want, but to the Orthodox Jews I’ve been reading about, the story of the two creations is a basic, no problem, black and white fact. In the second creation, God added mercy so we’d have a shot at a happy ending. I think we’ve got the two stories playing out right here, right now. And I think The Matrix does a good job at hinting at that truth.

And don’t fret the objection. I said I expected them. If our faith can’t handle open dialogue we’re in trouble. [besides, I haven’t even begun to stray from traditional Christian interpretations]

And while we’re in the Old Testament, Cypher’s complaint about eating the same food every day sounded a lot like Moses’ lot complaining about manna. [they ate that stuff every day for a long time]

And the $2,000/2,000 year connection was one I brought up. Just another clue to Neo’s metaphoric connection to that other One. “Your my own personal Jesus Christ.” C’mon, you can’t get much more obvious.

Please all, feel free to disagree. I had a hard time with much of this as well.

Hey guys,

I just found a very good definition of the trinity, the site also has a lot of good solid answers to questions people have been asking on this post.

http://www.kencollins.com/Question-18.htm

Just though some people might find this interesting. Anyway cya all soon

I guess the reason Agents can't take over the liberated people is the same reason a demon cannot take over a person living in the Spirit and not the Flesh.

Has anyone considered the influence of other religions in this movie?

Gee. Everything else I'd normally say about this movie has been said already..

Travoltus:

The only reason other religions would seem to influence this movie is because other religions were made as counterfeits of the real thing---Christianity. The devil has no new ideas. He can only distort the truth. . .Cover it up with his fanciful lies. . . pull a world over your eyes to blind you from the truth. . .

OnFyre:

Though I am a Christian myself, and a loyal one, I cannot bring myself to dismiss other religions as counterfeits. There's much to be learned about all kinds of faiths even when there is only one that you live by.

At the very low-down worst, they are subsets of God's whole. If you want, drop me a line at travoltus@hotmail.com and I'll throw ya a few examples. I don't want to become a waypoint (innocent or not) to a potential message board flamewar!

Hey guys I'm not so good at quoting the Bible but there is an issue in The Matrix that, if the story is really pursued, would certainly come to surface.

Some of the people in this story are born free ("a genuine child of Zion"). And then there are those born in bondage and freed. Isn't there a parable about the angels cheering whenever one in bondage is freed? If the "genuine children of Zion" are angels, then Morpheus (and his helpers) must be "saints". They too typically rejoice when someone is brought out of the Matrix.

Is Cypher but one example of many angels who will "fall from heaven" by acts of betrayal? I think I know how.

First: the angels are here to serve man. This is the truth that drove Lucifer and his gang to rebel. The children of zion are serving the enslaved humans by rescuing them, instead of just using nukes on the Matrix and ending it all. Think this cannot POSSIBLY grate on some people's nerves?

Well, remember the parable about the King and his 2 sons? And how one took his inheritance, spent it all up, and came back begging for forgiveness? And how his loyal brother fumed at seeing him being allowed back? Think about it. Genuine children of Zion are being obligated (by their sense of purpose) to rescue people who have been jacked into the Matrix (original sin?) and who have been fed the liquefied remains of their own kind (symbolic for the ongoing wages of sin in life?) while feeding their life energy to the robots (living a life of sin?). Does this make sense so far? The implants can never be removed (a sinner can never be perfect, only sanctified through Christ), and of course who wouldn't be thinking about the whole Soylent Green thing that's been going on? Can we say, "IMPURE"? I am quite sure that in Zion, a lively argument raging among the "Angels" (the children of zion) about the "redeemed sinners" (the rescued ones). From this breeds elitism and prejudice.

The book of Revelations says a third of the remaining Angels will fall. This sounds pretty accurate to the number of Zionites likely to lose their gourd at the sight of "Impure" people.

Of course the ace in the hole is the analogy to Jesus...born in the world but not of it. Neo: born in the Matrix, but not of it. Or: wasn't "The One" jacked in, too??

Of course now Neo did blab about what the Oracle said, and of course we know that he wasn't SUPPOSED to, per se; people should be getting the word that she said and will misconstrue it (biblical misinterpretation!) to say he isn't the One. If he is, he isn't supposed to say!

So there ya go. A perfect recipe for a rift between the born and the grown humans, from a logical, historical, and religious angle. It is not illogical, thus, to say that Zion could get badly rocked from within by a fight over the "impure" people.

Or: this plot has 100 miles to the gallon and that's just city driving!

Also, on an unrelated note: Jesus said "unless you see as a child sees, you cannot enter the Kingdom." Is that why they don't typically rescue people who are "too old"?

12321, relax and I understand and share your expression of embarrasment

I believe there was something of a hop skip resulting in misunderstanding.

I was responding to a build up of this disconnection trend. I was using
your message to work off of but not ment specifically for you, or you only.
In fact I wasn't even thinking of what you specifically reference.

Current events and moderation of forums (understandably) add to the weight
of trend caution I think.

OnFrye4God, in the spectrum of possible connections one can make to the
meaning of things in the movie to what they actually mean, you seem intent
on ........?????

Please elaborate, not on details but on what picture you are trying to draw
out. Or perhaps what picture you are trying to avoid?

This is my first post at this specific thread (third in total) but I've been following you guys for the past week, and to echo tracer, I also respect and appreciate all of your remarks for their intelligence and insight. For a movie that initially struck me as leaning more towards the Asian philosophy/Buddhist side, all of you have impressed me with your Christian insight.

Ronin57, I must say that I very much enjoy reading your posts; the latest one's referral to an explaination on the trinity was most interesting.

I'd love to join in with the discussions you are all having, however I find myself tied down with projects and exams at the time. But keep posting.....Something good is happening here!

This is why I woke in the middle of the night?

----- ----- -----

Everyone: I’d like to urge you not to rise to the bait in 3seas “The Matrix - A new (Christian?) Cyber Cult?”

----- ----- -----

3seas: Our beliefs do not revolve around this movie or the buildings where we meet. They revolve around the concept of a God who loves us. How you have so twisted this fact is beyond my ability to understand.

Before you throw another stone, I’d urge you to take a look at your own hands. Do you really want to hurl more contempt? Are you certain you can rid yourself of it in this way?

Look. No hard feelings. C’mon back and we can talk and forget that other thread even exists. Fair enough?

3seas gets no help or encouragement from me on this one! As Mike said, Don't rise to the bait,...cause that's all it is!

3seas,...I gotta ask motivation on this one!

OnFyre: Counterfeits? I’ve gotta distance myself from that remark. The world’s religions have much in common. Christ sets Christianity apart, of course, but Christ also warned us not to judge. Think about it my friend.

Ronin57: Nice link. Great analogy. Bookmarked KC’s homepage. Thanks.

Beeblebrox: What a passage to quote! [if the single verse is taken completely out of context] My kinda guy. And you’re right -- there’s plenty of Eastern influence in the film as well. The writers seemed to pull from all over the place. And you’re right again -- something good IS happening here. Ace those exams then come on back.

OnFyre [from an earlier post]: You said, “You seem to know more about this movie than you let on.” Valid point. Some of this takes a bit of groundwork -- you know, building the right foundation. I’ve alluded to something happening in the past. I’ll fess up now.

In 1988 something really strange and terrifying and beautiful happened. I told all my friends. Big mistake. If one of you hears voices and sees visions and are given odd jobs, you might consider keeping it to yourself. Oh, I should stress that the messages were, and continue to be, all love and light -- it was the awakening that was terrifying. One of the coolest parts was that a year later a movie came out. Got a few of my friends looking at me sideways... Oh, the movie? Field of Dreams.

My foundation? I bet all my chips on God’s Kid. When I drew up that contract and signed it... well, Thomas quotes Jesus: “Those who seek should not stop seeking until they find. When they find, they will be disturbed.” Yeah, you might say that. The quote continues: “When they are disturbed, they will marvel.” From the Gospel of Thomas 2:1-3, Nag Hammadi Codex, Rediscovered 1945.

Treasures in jars of clay.

Yeah, something good is happening. There’s plenty of tragedy in the news to distract you, but don’t ever stop listening to the light you feel inside. You CAN feel it, I know. Everyone does. Not everyone chooses to listen.

hey tracer,

I didn’t mean for that last post to sound like “hey, I understand everything.” I’m asking and seeking and knocking my way through every day. I thank God for the answers he’s provided. Even the ones I didn’t think I wanted to find.

12321, there is no bait in any thread I started.

But there is misunderstanding on your part!
Maybe that is why you woke in the middle of the nite!

cecilc,

Motivation?

Try this on for size.

Read some of the reviews and notice how, in all the things people fabricate,
get out of and read into this movie, there are those who are viewing it as
a cyber cult.

I'm really sorry if you think blaming me for this will result, in those seeing
it as a "cult", changing their minds about it.

Putting your head in the sand is no different than taking the blue pill.

And how can you be sure you are not taking a blue pill as you now stand?

Maybe you enjoy being viewed as a "cult" member?

Ignoring the issue is not going to make it go away. And I didn't create the
issue, if anyone did then some media personal only pointed it out.

So who did create the issue?

First of all
I have REALLY been enjoying everyone's posts for the last few days. Some really extraordinary and facinating ideas and pictures being drawn.

As for 3seas latest endevors...
--Ignoring the issue is not going to make it go away. And I didn't create the
issue--
Ignoring the issue won't make it go away, but it certainly does not have to be perpetuated. I don't know if I am understanding you correctly (and if I'm not, I apoligize), but there is no reason to have to create a new "religion" out of the ideas in this movie. It already exists. This movie simply presents the existing ideas in a different format.....a more modern format.
Again, if I missed the point, I apoligize and hope you will make it clear.

Some little things that I've been thinking about over the last few days while reading the posts:

Earlier, I believe OnFyre4God asked about the shell casings. I like to think that the shell casings are a metaphor for tears.....tears shed for the loss of life in the battle against evil.

And the agents names......Morpheus had mentioned something along the lines of, "If they aren't one of us, they are agents." He was saying that any of the people in the Matrix were potential agents. That is why they are called Smith, Brown, and Jones (very common names)....they could be anyone. It doesn't matter who you are, you have an equal chance of being good ("unpluggable") or evil (an agent).

Some questions...
Has anyone else noticed any other references to "7"...besides the seven witnesses who went out into the world (Neo, Trin, Morph, Apoc, Switch, Mouse, and Cyph)? Revelations is inundated with references to "7".

Trin3:
The names Smith, Brown and Jones are common, but also ordinary/normal. These could be taken as symbolizing the essence of the "world" fighting to keep everyone else behaving "normal".

Very nice metaphor with the food=Word=manna connection! God promises to provide for our needs; we have to remember that what we need is often very different (and sometimes less appealing) than our wants.

Trin3: I think you've nailed the agent name issue. Thank you for making it so apparent.

Regarding the soundtrack, I think we have to be careful in overextending the symbolism. Lets keep in mind that this film, although much of the imagery and metaphor is intentional, was also made to entertain and attract the masses in order to turn a profit. I believe the music was selected because of its technological sound, its driving energy to support the action sequences, and because the lyrics pertain in some way to the theme. I personally don't see any other connection that was intentional. This is not to say that we cannot explore the question further and still glean some insights the music/lyrics may provide to our discussion.

3seas: Yes, it’s quite likely that I misunderstand because I’m certain that I don’t understand. I’ve admitted as much and asked for explanations. I’m asking again.

But first, here’s where I’m coming from...

I’ve got a personal relationship with someone I call God. It’s not a philosophy. It’s not a religion, patchwork or otherwise. It’s a deeply spiritual connection that results in two way communication out here in the physical world. I ask, seek, and knock [as per the instructions] and I get answers.

There’s a lot more to it than that, and I’ve posted some of the details, but that’s what it boils down to. Maybe my faith isn’t as strong as some of the others here -- c’mon, I’ve been shown so many wonders... it hardly seems fair. They believe without the proof that’s been poured into me. I envy them.

So, what is it you want to show me? Can you show me hundreds upon hundreds of visions? Can you fiddle with the circumstances of my life to arrange meaningful coincidences -- synchronicities -- in order to bring me to people and places I wouldn’t otherwise find? Can you inspire me to write something like “Dream Yet Complete” as fast as my hand can move the pen?

I’ll read your words. Heck, I love you for trying so hard. But you’ve gotta try to understand that I’m in interactive mode right now. This is a dream come true for me. Do you really expect me to walk away from this ride right before it REALLY starts to roll?

I feel you trying. I know how much it hurts and how frustrating it can be. I’ve been there too. This is my truth, 3seas, poured on the page to prove I’m listening. Does any of it make sense?

Everyone: If that last post sounds a little crazy [or A LOT crazy] please feel free to ignore it.

----- ----- -----

You may now resume your prior conversations.

And the first shall be last...
Hmm. Doesn't sound like such a bad place to be.

3seas: Just so it works out. That’s the important part. I wish you smooth sailing and a successful journey.

Everyone [as our Earthly hosts at WB might say]: On with the show, this is it!

Trin3- you are amazing. I wish I knew you in the real world. E-mail me if you care to... :-)

Part of a post from the thread "Technology addiction..." that seemed relevant to this discussion:

God must choose us; only he can "unplug" us by the working of the Holy Spirit within, realigning our hearts and minds and opening our eyes for the first time. The Holy Spirit acts like the red pill, the trace program that Neo swallowed, which altered his input/output carrier signal (or something to that effect). It was this change in his system that allowed him to "awaken" and perceive the truth. Now, as a "free moral agent," he has the choice to accept and live by the Truth, or to follow Cypher and plug back into the Matrix (parable of the sower and the seed is very appropriate here).

This was in response to a question regarding free will and the ability to choose reality over non-reality.

shadrach: Hear Hear!! Although I would not necessarily want to "experience and live" certain other beliefs, I welcome the discussion of other interpretations. This allows me to re-evaluate my perspective. Even remaining within the "Christian point of view" it is easy to adopt a narrow understanding of Truth, to limit ourselves to a "comfort zone". As a pastor once told me, "you can't put God in a box."

I may not agree with or adopt other perspectives, but certainly the consideration of them can help illuminate my own misunderstandings or self-imposed limitations. If my beliefs are Truth, they shall (and ought to) stand up to scrutiny when measured against other ideas.

My eyes are open; I await with anticipation the insights you have to share.

tracer: Like I said in that other thread, you’re probably one dang good teacher.

Everyone: Just in case you’d like ready access to the movie’s dialogue, Thereisnospoon has finished a transcription. He’s also given the green light to reproduce it. Either contact him directly or snag a copy here:

http://www.ix625.com/matrixscript.html

----- ----- -----

Cypher: So, can I ask you something? Did he tell you why he did it, why you're here?

[Neo nods affirmative]

Cypher: Jesus. What a mind job. So you're here to save the world. What do you say to something like that?

1 Corinthians 15:45 speaks of two Adams. Neo has that meeting [and “debugging”] at the Adam Street Bridge.

Connection?

Switch says, “Right now there's only one rule, our way or the highway.” When Neo starts to climb out of the car, Trinity asks him to trust her. When he asks why, she says, “Because you have been down there, Neo. You know that road. You know exactly where it ends. And I know that's not where you want to be.”

If we’re looking at this as a Messiah movie packed with symbolism, what’s the “down there” mean to you?

Slow day, huh!?

Tracer -- "I personally don't see any other connection that was intentional."....refering to the soundtrack. You are probably right. I just thought I would throw it out. After all, the audience that this movie advertises to directly listens to the type of music on the soundtrack, so I'm sure they were playing to their audience........but I still would like to think that they put SOME thought into the music. Music (at least for me) is a lot more powerful than dialog.

12321 -- First of all, I don't think you are crazy at all. I personally have never been spoken to, but I know someone who has, and I totally believe in what she had to say (I've known this person my whole life....she is NOT crazy either). Although I am not lucky enough to TOTALLY understand how awesome it must have been, I can imagine that it must be fantastic!
As to your question about Trinity's road, VERY good question. That line has bothered me from the start. The only way I can explain it is that there are two roads a person can take......one towards good (with the Trinity) or one back (in Neo's case) toward evil.......turning his back on God, so to speak. But I still am not satisfied with that, so if anyone has anything better, PLEASE!

I was reading over the dialog on Mike's page today and "saw the light" in the dialog between the characters when Neo had decided he was going back for Morpheus.
Tank--"I want Morpheus back too, but what you're talking about is suicide." Many of J's followers probably felt the same way about J's willingness to die for us. Then Neo answers "I know that's what it looks like, but it's not. I can't explain to you why it's not." Wow.
But then J didn't do it alone -- Trinity "I'm going with you....I believe Morpheus means more to me than he does to you. I believe if you were really serious about saving him you are going to need my help." Great stuff!

And Shadrach----Such the flatterer!

---------------------------

Info from the plaque:
Mark III No. 11
Nebuchadnezzar
Made in the USA
Year 2069

Thoughts from my perspective:
Mark 3:11? Interesting to say the least
Neb? God used him to let Daniel shine
USA? Look at the back of a dollar bill
2069? 555-0690 [Room 303]

A mini-semi-explanation:
That last one led me back to Daniel
Full circle? Well, it’s put in writing, of sorts
And Daniel was saved from 6:9 because he believed the back of the dollar bill
You know... the trusty part

----- ----- -----

ps to Trin3: Thanks
And about that line
About having been down there before
[or, as a Talking Head might sing: Where does that highway lead to?]
Where did JC have to go just before that first Easter Sunday?

Chek it out:

Jeremiah 43

10 "and say to them, 'Thus says the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel: "Behold, I will send and bring Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon, My servant, and will set his throne above these stones that I have hidden. And he will spread his royal pavilion over them.
11 "When he comes, he shall strike the land of Egypt and deliver to death those appointed for death, and to captivity those appointed for captivity, and to the sword those appointed for the sword.
12 "I will kindle a fire in the houses of the gods of Egypt, and he shall burn them and carry them away captive. And he shall array himself with the land of Egypt, as a shepherd puts on his garment, and he shall go out from there in peace.
13 "He shall also break the sacred pillars of Beth Shemesh that are in the land of Egypt; and the houses of the gods of the Egyptians he shall brun with fire."'"

Eh? Eh? !!!!!!! Heh heh.

Also: anybody know if there is a city at the lattitude 69 N longitude 20 E ? Or any variations with those numbers? Kinda curious.

------------------
= = =
Jonathan S. Gilbert
http://www.formatory.com/
= = =

Is this rumor or truth? Posted at:

http://wbboards.warnerbros.com/ultimate/files/Forum68/HTML/000828.html

From Southam News

For anyone wondering about the religious symbolism in THE MATRIX, cast member Joe Pantoliano insists he has the straight goods on the real meaning of the new Warner
Bros. epic. He says that Neo, the character played by Keanu Reeves, is intended to represent Jesus Christ. Vancouver actress Carrie-Ann Moss, who plays Trinity, his partner in the battle against evil, is really Mary Magdalene and the mentor-like Morpheus (Laurence Fishburne) is John the Baptist. The fearsome Agent Smith (Hugo Weaving) who strives to destroy Keanu is Pontius Pilate. Pantoliano says these religious parallels were very much in the minds of film-makers Larry and Andy Wachowski when they wrote the script.

----- ----- -----

shadrach: Good digging. I like the reference to Nebuchadnezzar as “my servant.” The fire and brimstone talk always makes me uncomfortable [upsets my pacifist nature] but I still keep trying to understand.

All: I keep correcting typos in the script as I find ‘em. If you catch any I miss please email. Thanks.

> > >
shadrach: Good digging. I like the reference to Nebuchadnezzar as “my servant.” The fire and brimstone talk always makes me uncomfortable [upsets my pacifist nature] but I still keep trying to understand.
< < <

Fire and brimstone stuff, violent gun battles in the Matrix; what's the difference? If it's all metaphorical then it's all metaphorical.

Wow! Just saw the film again. It gets better every time!!!

Two observations:

I am now convinced the whole scene at Neo's apartment door was somehow created or planned by Morpheus especially to convey a message to Neo (most likely to his subconscious). Consider:

Choi: Hallelujah. You're my savior, man. My own personal Jesus Christ.
Neo: You get caught using that...
Choi: Yeah, I know. This never happened. You don't exist.
Neo: Right.
Choi: Something wrong, man? You look a little whiter than usual.
Neo: My computer, it... You ever have that feeling where you're not sure if you're awake or still dreaming?
Choi: Mm, all the time. It's called Mescaline. It's the only way to fly. Hey, it just sounds to me like you need to unplug, man. You know, get some R and R. What do you think, DuJour? Shall we take him with us?

Notice the various direct references to Neo:
"You're my savior"- Neo is the One
"My own personal Jesus Christ"- Again, Neo is the One
"You don't exist"- Neo, as he currently perceives himself, is only a digital projection.
"You look a little whiter than usual"- Neo's actual skin color in the pod is very white.
"You need to unplug"- Neo needs to be freed from the Matrix.

Is this merely forshadowing? It seems too purposeful for that! The scene is symbolic of the fact that God will sometimes communicate to us through intentionally planned circumstances.

I also noticed the two scenes where bullets are fired and the word "no" is said. The first is when Neo rescues Morpheus. As he is about to fire into the room from the helicopter, agent Smith holds up his hand and says "no", but to no avail. The second scene following Neo's resurrection is distinctly similar, with the roles reversed. However, in this case the bullets do stop.

To all:

Check this site out:
http://www.anotheruniverse.com/movies/features/joepantoliano.html

At this site, Joe Pantoliano confirms that Lawrence Fishburne was John the Baptist, Neo was a Christ figure, he was Judas, and Trinity was representative of Mary Magdalene.

Check it out!

tracer: About foreshadowing and the Jesus/Neo/The One connection.

In addition to what you point out, there’s Neo’s room [101] and the cash [$2,000]. The room number plays nicely off Trinity’s 303 on the Heart O’ the City Hotel. How ‘bout a little creative interpretation:

Trinity/303/Three O’ Three
Neo/101/One O’ One
[and, of course Neo’s resurrection at/by/through Three O’ Three]

The $2,000/2,000 year connection I’ve mentioned before.

That the symbolism in this movie is pulled from many belief systems is undeniable, but Biblical references resonate throughout. There does appear to be a purposeful intention to link Reeves’ character to that of The Christ/The Messiah/The Savior. acrobat’s link provides additional evidence [thanks for that one].

About God and planned circumstances... To 3seas I said [in part]: Can you fiddle with the circumstances of my life to arrange meaningful coincidences -- synchronicities -- in order to bring me to people and places I wouldn’t otherwise find?

[and from another thread] Visions: Two kinds. In the first, vast, complex imagery and understanding [but no words] in what seems like the blink of an eye. [but no way to know for sure] One of these showed how the Source [I call this Source “God”] interacts with individuals by fiddling with circumstances to arrange meaningful coincidences, synchronicity, in an attempt to establish a dialogue. It’s improvisation. And the imagery/explanation/understanding was so beautiful...

I agree with the poet and the scientist [Keats and Einstein]: Beauty = Truth.

It seems we agree.

and re: "’You need to unplug’- Neo needs to be freed from the Matrix.” I missed that comment’s connection to Neo’s pod -- that he was hard wired to the Matrix there and needed to unplug, literally. Great catch!

shadrach: You may be right about the metaphors, but my path, it seems, is marked with a different one.

Among the messages I’ve received was a directive to “send love” within lucid dreams. The first time I was able to do so, standing, eyes shut [within the dream], embracing world leaders [like Khomeini and Gorbachev -- it was 1988] one by one, love either pouring from or passing through me [accompanied by an unimaginable sensation I’ve grown to recognize], I was interrupted by a tiny voice: “Would you send love to ________?” [I don’t remember the name] When I opened my eyes [within the dream] there stood a little girl. When I asked, “How did you know I was sending love?” she said, in a matter-of-fact tone, “Because you were shining like a rainbow.”

Love seems to be my primary “weapon” in this battle.

Hey guys! I've been trying for about a week to get registered so I can reply to these FASCINATING threads! 3seas, 12321, MaxQ, Cecilc, your ideas and comments are so insightful and thought-provoking . . . thanx for getting my mind jump started. I'm on viewing #6 of THE MOVIE -- just can't seem to get enough. I thought it was just me until I lucked upon this message board site. There are only a couple of things that still escape me (and then I'll try to start entering threads with the current topic!) 1. What does Cypher say at the very beginning when he and Trin are talking about her taking over his shift, right after he says "You know we're going to kill him, right?" He says one other line before Trin asks if the line is secure -- does anyone know what it is? 2. I have listened (and watched) very closely for the answer to the "dead man" reference at the end when Trin is talking to "dead" Neo. She does NOT ever say "a dead man." To the best of my knowledge, her line is: "The Oracle told me I would fall in love, and that that man, the man I fell in love with, would be the One." I think people are confusing the words "that that" (as in "and that that man") with dead man. WOW that looks confusing on the page. hope it makes sense to you.
By the way, OnFyre4God, I think you've got good insights too, but don't get so caught up in the blinded faith of a single "right" religion. Religion is a human construct, spirituality is the language of the soul. There IS a big difference. We are all working towards being enlightened within our own beliefs. I'll be back with more when I can fake out my boss like I'm working on work and not chatting on line!!!!

Dialogue at: http://www.ix625.com/matrixscript.html

Hello! I've been gone for a few days. I only get a chance to use the net about 3 times a week, which accounts for my infrequent reply's, but I try to keep up with y'all because I really enjoy this discussion!

12321: You said "world religions have much in common" which only seems to re-enforce my comment about counterfeits. A counterfeit dollar bill needs to have much in common with a real dollar bill if it is to succeed in decieving people, (which is the ultimate purpose of a counterfeit if I'm not mistaken!) "A little leaven leavens the whole lump." (Galations 5:9) We should be using these similarities as open doors to reveal the whole truth of God to those lost in empty philosophies. "So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." (Romans 10:17 NKJV) We should only condone doctrine derived directly from God's word. Please, feel free to change my mind about this. I tend to lean a lot toward fundamentalist doctrine, but I will always agree to disagree in the end. Faith in Jesus is all that matters.

Can we all sing with one voice?
If we all love the same God?
Can we agree to disagee?
And so we shout with one voice!
To the only God in all the universe,
Who holds us in His hands.

Hey Guys! I just thought it would be cool if we could e-mail testimonies to one another. Or maybe open up a new thread on which we could all post them. It might help us to understand each others perspectives and interpretations in a whole new way. Besides, I kind of like you guys and I would like to know more about you. What do you think???

12321 said. . . "If we’re looking at this as a Messiah movie packed with symbolism, what’s the “down there” mean to you?"

This is the reason I suggested a testimony thread. I am going to star one as soon as I finish reading all of the posts here. If someone else beats me to it, more power to ya'!

OnFyre4God: I can appreciate your perspective, and truly respect your comments, I just wonder what you'd say to all the Buddhists, or Taoists, or Jews out there that don't subscribe to YOUR particular doctrine.
I mean, isn't the real message of the Matrix that we are all part of the bigger picture, the machine that powers everything? If that is true, then whether one finds a connection to the higher power through the Bible, Torah, spoken history, etc. does not matter.
All that matters is that we feel the connectedness and we keep searching for the path that brings us in contact with what our soul really wants -- to be who we really are and understand how we can free ourselves by realizing we all have the capacity to be The One.
Don't want to get too deep here -- your idea of another thread is good; I might have to check it out!

shadrach:

On your Jeremiah 43 discovery:
I'm sure you already noticed, but this describes the biggest shoot-'em-up/explosion scene in the whole movie.

"He shall also break the sacred pillars. . . and the houses of the gods of the land of Egypt he shall burn with fire."

Does anyone know what kind of building this scene took place in? I suspect that it will turn out to be something representative of pagan/worldly temples. Maybe a bank? Federal reserve?

Is this way out there? I feel like I'm off in la-la land. Oh well. . . just thoughts. . .

OnFyre: I vote for the email option or stickin’ ‘em on one of our own sites ‘cause our WB hosts have set this place up for discussion about the movie.

Neophile-: This thread was started by a guy named cecilc because he saw amazing parallels to another guy’s story -- the Christian Messiah, Jesus. If you can draw parallels to another Messiah’s story, please do. I’m not suggesting it’s this way or the highway, you’re free to post anything, but there’s 800+ threads here ‘cause there’s lots of different opinions. cecilc’s is just one of ‘em. There’s lots of posts here ‘cause others, for the most part, agree with him.

OnFyre comes on strong, but that’s his right as well. If you’ve read much of my stuff you know I’ve got my own idiosyncrasies. Lots of variety here.

You say: ”...and understand how we can free ourselves by realizing we all have the capacity to be The One.” Is this YOUR particular doctrine?

I’m not trying to ruffle your feathers, just to ask a question... Are you saying the Messiah could be any one of us? [NOT a trick question -- just curious]

shadrach:

On your Jeremiah 43 discovery:
I'm sure you already noticed, but this describes the biggest shoot-'em-up/explosion scene in the whole movie.

"He shall also break the sacred pillars. . . and the houses of the gods of the land of Egypt he shall burn with fire."

It is my suspicion that this scene takes place in the same office building that Neo was employed at. This building housed one of the top software companies in the world (according to Rhineheart). Technology has become one of the most worshipped gods in America. Technology is also the mother of A/I and the matrix. I believe that this is the connection to the "houses of the gods of the Egyptians".

Also, notice that this building is destroyed at the foundation. We must begin warring against principalities and powers at the foundation level if we are going to be effective at the higher levels.

Is this way out there? I feel like I'm off in la-la land. Some of this does not make sense. Oh well. . . just thoughts. . .

Neophile:

I know that this will sound like it is very biased, because it is. According to my very firm convictions and beliefs, there is only one thing that I would be able to say to all the Buddhists, Taoists, and Jews out there that don't subscribe to Christian doctrine. They are wrong. I know that bible is the pure, unadulterated, non-pasturized word of God. It makes this point very clear --- "I am the way, the truth, and the life. NO ONE comes to the Father EXCEPT THROUGH ME." -Jesus The Messiah

You see Neophile, we can't all have our own truth. Because if my truth was the truth, your truth was the truth, 3seas truth was the truth, Buddah's truth was the truth, Mohammed's truth was the truth, and Joseph Smith's truth was the truth, then what would be the truth?

There is ONE Truth.

There is no room for folly in Him

I believe that if you are willing to take the red pill, and accept the truth that God is offering you, you will be set free from the world's system and all of it's endless philosophies of what the truth might be. He wants to reveal Himself personally to you Neophile.

Take the red pill Neophile.

Repent. Believe on The Lord Jesus Christ, and be saved.

I don't like to offend people, but I refuse to make apologies for the gospel. God bless.

Well, nobody can accuse OnFyre of hedging his bets.

Got a new one for ya!

Consider the scene where Neo is at the office and the agents come looking for him. Morpheus, via the cell phone which arrives just in the nick of time, provides Neo a means of escape through the window to the scaffolding.

A metaphor for God's promise to always provide a means of escape from temptation. Sin (the agents) often "comes for us" when we least expect it. God promises a way out. This "escape route" may be difficult, it may require faith, and it may come at the last minute.

Neo had the will but not the faith. He was afraid of falling. The result was that he surrendered to the agents and experienced the consequences (the interrogation scene). What often keeps us from avoiding temptation is our own fear of falling; we convince ourselves we are not able to resist and expect ourselves to fail. We stop listening to God and concentrate on our own weaknesses, just as Neo dropped the phone (his communication line with Morpheus), took his focus off the scaffolding, and turned his eyes downward to the street. I guess the scaffolding could represent the Word.

shadrach/OnFyre: Uncanny how that seems to connect. [but it’s not the software company, Tank said it was “a military controlled building”]

tracer: Beautifully done. Did you notice that the scaffolding was what the window washers were using. You know, those guys cleaning the glass behind Neo’s worldly boss, Mr. Rhineheart, as Neo got chewed out. You remember: “Do I make myself clear?”

I’ve been waiting since my first post [in Imagery and Metaphor] for someone to bring up the window washers. Has someone? [maybe I missed it] I mean, “Rhineheart” is glaring enough, but... this is obvious, right?

OnFyre: I don’t get how the new thread will differ from this one. We’ve got some serious momentum here, plus I’m stretched pretty thin, time-wise.

Cecil: I second tracer’s motion. All in favor, email the threadmaster until we reach the third stage.

----- ----- -----

9:18
[not now... then]
09/18
[just wondering]

Hey, everybody!
We've started Part 3 of this thread now. Please post further responses to:

http://wbboards.warnerbros.com/ultimate/files/Forum68/HTML/000855.html

Or look for it on the main topic listing.
Thanks,
Cecil